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home : opinions : opinions August 28, 2014


2/11/2012 1:09:00 PM
Letter: Abortion boils down to destruction of a human life

Editor:

As a Christian and a retired physician, I was gratified to read in the recent Verde Independent that Sen. Steve Smith, R-Maricopa is proposing Arizona bill SB 1494 that would define human life as beginning “at conception.”

This is consistent with the Bible and certainly is backed by medical science. For women considering abortion, this would put them on notice as to what they are really doing - destroying a human life.

Kirk R. Stetson M.D.

Cottonwood


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Reader Comments

Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012
Article comment by: John A. Bond

Dear Phineous Jack, et al:

Let me share a story with you. My older brother was born horribly deformed with a birth defect. He was born with club feet.

His feet were so deformed that his toes touched his ankles.

We were very poor. My Mother went to the Shriners for help. They arranged for experimental surgery for my brother and after 10 years and 10 pain surgies, he was able to walk normally, although one foot is 1/2 shorter than the other.

As a matter of fact the surgery was so successful that Jim was able to join the US Marine Corps in 1966 and he fought in the Viet Nam war.

Back then they did not have ultlrasound so that the parents could see their baby in the womb.

I asked my Father once what he would have done if he and Mother had seen an ultrasound of my older brother prior to his birth and discovered his deformity.

Father said, " Well, honestly, I think we [as if it were his choice, too], would have aborted him. I would not have brought such a deformed and disabled person in this cruel and harsh world."

Well, he was born into this cruel and harsh and ironically, he received surgical repair of his deformed feet, and went on to serve in the Viet Nam War where as an occupying military millions of innocent women [many pregnant] and children were murdered.

He may have murdered some of them, too. He is the only one who knows the answer to that question and he lives with it every day.

Lif is full of ironies. This is but one example.
The isue always arises with those who oppose abortion over whether or not it is murder.

Ironically, the same "pro-life" people who claim it is murder have no problem with the real murder of pregnant women [with their unborn "children"] and they do NOT deem that "murder".

Those innocent people are merely "collateral damage" an "accident" of war but there was no intent to murder them.

To that I say, Poppycock! The military history of the United States is replete with exqmples of "genocide" perpetrated against many peoples worldwide.

Beginning with the genocide of Native Americans [wherein after being placed on reservations [apartheid], they were given spoiled meat and blankets deliberately tainted with the small pox virus in the hopes of irradicating them.

This is true, American history, look it up on line for yourself.

Futhermore, the incidents of mass murder of entire villages [men, women [many pregnant], and children by US military in Viet Nam , Cambodia [Nixon's secret war], and Laos are welll documented. Nixon, like Bush II, was a war criminal!

Now, having said all of that, I find it quite ironic that those who rely upon the Old Testament view of " that shall not kill" find abortion to be murder requiring in pre-Christian biblical times the stoning to death of any such person(s) guilty of murder. I remind you that adultery also required death by stoning, too.

Interestingly, in our modern society, Adultry no longer receives the death penalty but abortion does require it according to those who oppose legal abortions.

Furthermore, the murder of innocent civilians by an occupying military should require the death penalty for anyone engaging in it as a war crime but this rarely if ever happens.

I can cite cases to you, one recently where US Marines murdered in cold bold 24 Iraqi civilians [men, women [pregnant] and children] and the only penalty for the leader of the group of marines who murdered them was a demotion in rank. None of them even received a court martial for murdering innocent civilians in a time of war.

It is important to keep all of this in mind because America is a "nation at war". We are currently functioning under the US Patriot Act with the President invoking the War Powers Act to do pretty much whatever he [or his predessor] damn well pleases during a "time of war" with the constitution be damned.

There also is the issue of the death penalty which should concern all "pro-life" people but curiously does not.

The US Criminal "justice" is notoriously racist. It is so corrupt and flawed that many innocent people are convicted of murders they did not commit, sentenced to death and murdered by the State [in our name, for us] having been guilty of only one crime, being born a person of color in the US and vulnerable to racist criminal justice system that instituitonalizes racism in its structure, practice and procedures.

Now, let us suppose that an innocent person is put to death by the State [in our name] but that person, [ a living, breathinig human being] turns out to be innocent. Are all of us not guilty of murder?

Do we have the right to claim that because he was tried and convicted in a court of law within the framework of a racist and elitist system that we are not guilty of his murder and should be put to death , too, according to the biblical code of death by stoning?

Well, I am sure all of the "pro-life" people out there would declare the absurdity of such a notion. After all, if this were true, there would virtually be no one left in US.

So, let us return to the issue of abortion and state abortion is legal. It is not against the law to abort a zygot, or fetus, and a "baby" cand only be aborted under the most circumspect circumstances after a physician and the mother determine there is a justifiable reason to abort based upon the woman's right to life, too.

So, after fully considering the corruption in America that allows for endless wars of foreign occupation in pursuit of profit to feed the GREED of multinational corporations, maybe we should give more consideration the individual right of a woman to retain control over her own body.

Furthermore, it states somewhere in the bible "judge that ye be not judged" because according to GOD, those who judge others are subject to the same death by stoning for those who commit adultery murder, etc..

Something to think about unless after judging others you end up in the same "hell" to which pro-lifers so readily comdemn those women who choose abortion.


Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012
Article comment by: A New Panel

Yes. A New Panel is in order. This panel will be made up of ALL women (the majority by the way) The new panel will decide all medical treatments for ALL men. They will decide. They will decide whether to treat your ED, your prostate, your hormones. They will decide whether you are fit to reproduce, become a father, your ability to support children and that you are a strong leader and man. Women can eliminate the entire political football game. Women can deny your ability to reproduce. They can remove you from power. Now? Do you want to continue this discussion? Women are the reason you are alive. Respect and Cherish them.

Posted: Friday, February 24, 2012
Article comment by: Verde Valley Citizen

I will not respond. Why? Because a USA citizen and their healthcare decisions are between a person and their dr. Period. I do not condone abortion as a method of birth control. NO I do not. This topic was nothing other than a political football by men. Scared little men, all wanting power. Maybe we should have an All Woman Panel to decide the fate of healthcare for men? Fair is fair? Now, as far as this discussion can go.....Forget it. The life of a child starts in ones heart and soul before conception. It starts with one woman and one man and A desire to create, to love, to want......ask mary.

Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: Okay, last remarks...

...on this, I promise. Yes, I did open myself up to that, and I'm sure we all got a good laugh out of the irony. LOL Happy to serve.

But all laughing aside, Phineous...at this point I'm sure it's obvious to ourselves and anyone reading that our only choice at this point is to agree to disagree on what actually comprises what we describe as "facts, knowledge and power"... I will never see your opinion, no matter how "educated" you believe it to be, as "fact," and you will never see my opinion as valid. Okee-dokee! We're good to go, then. Just as long as you, or anyone else who believes they have the right to legislate women's choices, don't run for office. If that happens, you'll find me right up there in your face, on the front lines of local political activism. And I will, yes, do my utmost best to be civil in the process.

Best to you and yours!


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: Phineous Jack

Standing Corrected,
Funny you should make mention of me not reading your posts, when you were the one misquoting me... lol. Appology accepted and yes I do read your posts. I have read everyones posts here. Sorry for your pain in the miscarriage.

You see the problem is there are facts. There is less and less opinion when you actually research it. Think about what your saying. As long as the fetus is in the womb it is entirely the mothers whim to decide whether it lives or not, even up to the minutes before it is born? Think this through. I don't think you are comfortable with that from what you stated.

There is a point at which the baby is a human, and by existing law has rights. Its location should not have any bearing on it. Its not just a womans body, the life inside is its own body. Thats the part most ignore. Inconvenient truth.

I don't judge anyone that has had an abortion. I don't think they are incredibly evil if they have had one. But knowledge is power and an education on this goes a long way. Most have, as you say, an opinion, that is based on what they have been told. Few know what a baby looks like at 9, 12 or even 21 weeks. There are definitions on when a zygote becomes a fetus and when a fetus becomes a newborn. no one has to wrestle with that. It exists.

I have no desire to take away a womans rights to her own body, but that includes women in the womb.

Thanks for being civil.


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: I stand corrected...

...there, Phineous. Went back and re-read all posts again, and I acknowledge that you did not (like some others here) try to speak for the Divine. I apologize. I've done my best to convey my respect for your OPINION, while also expressing my outrage toward all who actually believe their opinions should be translated into legislation that affects all women.

To answer your question, no, I myself would not feel okay about having an abortion, either very early on or later-term. I've miscarried, and could never imagine bringing what I went through emotionally, with that experience, upon myself. But AGAIN (do you really read what I'm writing, I wonder? LOL), regardless of how I feel about it, I would NEVER imagine it to be my right to say whether another woman should. The massive difference between us, sir, is that somehow you fantasize that YOUR OPINION on when life begins reflects FACTS! They do not, and they never will. This is the point from which I erroneously assumed you were claiming Divine rationale -- because you ACT like you are! No one BUT each woman herself...in counsel with the Divine, as she experiences It, or not...along with the counsel each woman receives from her physician and her own heart...HAS THE RIGHT to say what goes on within her own body.

What gets me so rialed up about all this, whether it's coming from the GOP or Fundamentalists or those previously defined as "conservative," is...AGAIN...how they seem to truly believe that they have the right to impose their values and opinions on when life begins -- as well as so much else -- onto the general population. Do you even realize this is what you're doing, Jack? I'm not sure which scares me more, the desires of others to see their values as law, over everyone, or the incredibly casual ignorance that allows this dominative stance to live in people's minds. There are other countries where the governing bodies dictate their values, faiths and beliefs onto the population, you know. Perhaps you'd feel more comfortable there...?


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: Phineous Jack

First of all, I have never made mention of God in this discusion. I never said ("I know God's heart and how HE would see this" ) You put those words in my post, not me.

So from your own post you have no problem with partial birth abortion? It's a question because I don't know where you really stand. At what point is it ok to kill a baby to you? Right before it draws its first breath? That seems to be what you are implying. There are facts if you care to look and the problem boils down to convenience and money, period.


Mr Bond,
You seem to think that an athiest democrat that is against abortion doesn't exist. Talk about profiling. I take it you are not for capital punishment. Why, because you would rather err on the side of life? Why not take that same approach to a fetus? Oh because it depends on your point of view. Hitler had a different point of view about Jews. Did that make it ok for him? I don't think so. And I can't believe you do either.

Throw all the insults you want, I have never belittled anyone here, I never mentioned what I believed about God or any other view on war or what not. I mentioned politics once refering to Republicans not really caring about abortion or they would have dealt with it when they had control, but they didn't. So you know nothing about me other than I am against abortion, period.
Stick to the discusion... Just because people still wrestle with the question of when life begins doesn't mean there isn't an answer...


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: John A. Bond

Dear Kristina:

There is a very old joke that goes something like this.

Thank God [Allah, Yaw Weh, Buddha, the Great Spirit] that women have the babies because if men gave birth to them, there woule only be one baby born in every family.

But, beyond that, it is amazing how determined men are to tell women what to do with their bodies.

This stems from a centuries old belief that men are superior and women are their "property" to be dealt with just like any other piece of property they possess. It is atavistic and anacrhonistic thinking but unfortunately it still prevails in 21st century America [globally], amongst the religiously fanatic hypocrites who profess to be pro-life while supporting wars that kill countless millions of pregnant women all over the world with little or no thought for the murder of those women or [as the "pro-lifers" profess, the unborn "child" in those women who are murdered with American weaponry by American soldiers all over the world.

They prefer to think of them as "collateral damage" a euphemism used by the military to describe innocent men, women and children killed during wartime.

Their hypocrisy is appallingly self-evident.


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: Thank you JOHN!

You spoke my heart right there, and clearly far better than I at this point. My astonishment over the "Conservative/GOP/Fundamentalist/Right's" position on this is starting to blow my transformers. Can you tell? LOL

Thank you very much.


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: Wrong Phineous!

Dude. The only "fact" going on here is that you appear to require someone relentlessly pointing out to you, no matter how many times you try to squirm out from under it, that you have no right to define when life begins for all women of childbearing age. You just don't. Try to come to terms with it, for once. Though I respect your right to your opinion, your rationale for making it universally applicable is nowhere near as solid as you imagine. Many have done their best to elucidate why to you, from as many angles they can find, to no avail.

Again -- I have no problem at all with this being your OPINION -- but when it's clear you would, if given the chance, make your opinion what all women must live by, you lose all credibility. The controversy over whether life begins with the heartbeat in utero or when first breath is drawn outside it is a REAL one, and it will continue to be despite your self-righteous passion. Praise be that your dominating tendencies don't extend beyond your immediate reality. Like, into any position within which you could actually impact the rights of others.

You keep throwin' this "I know God's heart and how HE would see this" hubris up, and I'll keep popping your ego's balloon, as gently as I possibly can. Your opinion is not The One and Only God-GivenTruth, sir.


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: John A. Bond

In a perfect world, the utopian world in which all women had loving husbands, family and community support for them and there were no unintended or unwanted pregnancies, or the life of the woman would not be at jeopardy by proceeding to delivery, then we would not have this discussion.

However, we do not live in a perfect world, far from it. Fathers have incestuous relations with their daughters men rape women women come from dysfunctional families and the idea of "community" barely survives in our 21st century world.

Before Roe V. Wade, the standard method of abortion was a coat hanger, knitting needle or some similiar device that all too often left the woman bleeding, severely injured and/or dead.

After Roe V. Wade, abortion became safe, and woman no longer had to fear dying from an abortion, although the procedure is still somewhat dangerous.

Left to the doctor and the patient, most abortions are safe and effective.

Anyone out there who thinks wealthy women and wealthy men who want their female mates to have an abortion, will not get one if abortion if made illegal again, are being "intellectually dishonest" and naive, too.

It is far better to leave this decision with the woman and her physician and if you must judge the woman, [how any man could do this is beyond my comprehension], judge her with love, understanding and forgiveness IF YOU MUST because YOUR religious belief has indoctrinated you into a belief that abortion is murder.

The interesting thing to me, is how so many, many self-righteous , allegedly religious people [who use their religion to justify being "pro-life" are also "'pro-war" and "pro-death penalty" without the least bit of hesitation and who are justify the killing of woman [many pregnant] in foreign wars of aggression [like Iraq and Afghanistan] motiivated out of GREED [Get Rich Eviscerating Everything Democratic], and they call these wars "justified" and make some wholly absurd rationalization about those deaths not being equivlent from their religious viewpoint with abortion.

So many so called "Christians" flutter back and forth between the Old and New Testament when it serves their fancy for the convenience of assauging their "conscious" for their support for the deathy penalty [which most certainly is cold-blooded, calculated murder of a living, breathing human being, and for the American wars of imperialist aggression that kill countless innocent women [many pregnant] and children in pursuit of profit to promote American empire and hegemony throughout the world.

When does life begin? When does a zygote become a fetus? When is the fetus a baby?

It depends on your point of view. For some it is at conception, for others at birth and for others it makes no difference from a religious point of view what your opinion is because this has sadly become the rallying cry of the fanatical, evangelical, right-wing fundamentalist Christian movement in America.

Furthermore, the weatlhy elite being very prescient have effectively used the argument over abortion to effectively divide and conquer America while it does everything it can to feed its insatiable lust for GREED!

Nooooooowm, Phew! Havind said all of that, leave the decision over what to do with HER BODY to the woman and her physician and try not to be so judgmental about someone else's life or death choices.


Posted: Thursday, February 23, 2012
Article comment by: Phineous Jack

Word it however it fits to you. But the facts remain facts. Call "it" a fetus, zygote or what ever else helps you sleep at night, but I fail to understand how some people can believe that something magically happens to turn the fetus into a baby when it hits air. The baby is its own biological system existing in another human. Ever wonder why the body accepts the baby when its alive but if the baby dies inutero a Dr has to perform a D&C?

Posted: Wednesday, February 22, 2012
Article comment by: Abortion IsMurder

Amen Dr.!!! Abortion is murder period! The people who do not think it is, have to write long drawn out excuses as to why it isn't! See above. LOL.

!Proud Mommy to 9 beautiful children and 2 angels in heaven ( Miscarriages )


Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2012
Article comment by: why is it jones

Why is it seems it always a male Republican that says we want the government out of our private lives except when it is OK to tell woman what to do in thier private lives. Of course 99% of these good Republicans are good christian people who are really happy to tell you excately how you are to live your life also.

Posted: Tuesday, February 21, 2012
Article comment by: But Mr. Jack...

You say, "You are being intellectually dishonest with yourself if you think it is not a baby in the whomb"?

Like I said before...and will again one last time, using this quote from you...an actual translation of it would read more like: "If you do not agree with me, that life beomes viable with the first heartbeat, and say instead you believe this occurs with the first breath, what's really going on is that deep inside, you DO believe the same way I do, but are choosing instead to lie to yourself about when life begins for the sake of holding a convenient, immoral belief."

Pretending that we don't see and know the actual stance your words convey is quite a feat there, Phineous, speaking of things that can appear "intellectually dishonest"...self righteous, creative word twisting can never hide the intention of someone trying to dominate their pespective and rights over another's.



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